Friday, January 13, 2012

Jesus didn't die on the cross? (Part 1)

Someone posted this as a comment on one of my other posts, it was off topic there, but I thought I'd start a new thread with it here. I'll comment on the topic in a future blog post. (On 27th Jan: Click Here)

Have you guys ever heard of Shabir Ally? He is the best Muslim debater and is able to cast doubt that Jesus even died

Ok,that is something,if you doubt he died on the cross then Christianity is false.


Most Muslims believe that Jesus was never crucified,it was made to look that way.

But some accept the swoon theory of Ahmed Deedat and Shabir Ally then there is a problem.

Shabir Ally's argument

He is the most famous Muslim debater.

It is that according to the Gospel details:

1.We can not be 1OO% sure Jesus really died

2.So in that case you can not convince me,Shabir Ally,that Christianity is true.

Here are 2 articles about why scholars disagree with the Swoon Theory.It has answers to 5 of Shabir Ally's arguments about it.They are:

Reason 1

"“The centurion was a Believer in Jesus"

Reason 2

"Pilate was surprised Jesus died so soon"

Reason 3

"A Friend of Josephus survived Crucifixion"

Reason Four

"Crucifixion does not pierce any Vital Organs.”(to thus cause death)"

Reason 5

"In Antiquity there were Case of the Dead Waking from a Coma"

Read these pages: [this one] and [this other one]


Tim said...

Hey Ricky. Not sure why you're spoiling your otherwise insightful posts by giving this nonsense some attention. Muslim apologetics aim to discredit Christianity simply in order to make the Koran the true word of God instead.

In my experience Islamic attempts to undermine the gospels make the same mistake as Christian apologetics by assuming the texts are reasonably reliable as historical accounts. If Muslim scholars were smart they'd embrace higher critical methods to undermine the Bible - but they'd soon realise that the same methods can be applied to their own sacred text and the game would be up.

Ricky Carvel said...


Yeh. I know. I'll get there... ;o)


Anonymous said...

Also very dubious here. The Romans were pretty bloody (pun intended) good at making an example of people by killing them in nasty ways. The idea that somehow they'd not managed to kill him AND he got off the cross AND he got away without anyone knowing AND his followers were completely mistaken amount this seems infeasible to me.

Still interesting idea though :)

minoria said...

Hello Tim:

I am the one who originally wrote the comment.I am familiar with the Muslim debaters' ideas.You said:

"In my experience Islamic attempts to undermine the gospels make the same mistake as Christian apologetics by assuming the texts are reasonably reliable as historical accounts.",

That is not true.They cherry-pick verses in the NT.What does that mean?It means they do not use the same methodology for all the NT.

Really they don't,they have no methodology.But there was one Muslim scholar who was consistent,and used the same radical methodology of the Jesus Seminar, and he came to the conclusion Mohammed probably never existed.He was Sven Muhammad Kalisch,a German convert.He later left Islam.

Read about him here:

minoria said...

I forgot to add that the formidable Robert Spencer,of,a wonderful blog,has also come to the conclusion Mohammed did not exist.His book will come out soon.Watch this video where he talks about WHY he thinks the guy never lived.

Ricky Carvel said...

The 'Part 2' of this post got lumped into a longer blog post here:

Anonymous said...

Rick, Thomas' name means twin and also he was the Diddymus which also means twin or double. Of who? Well, all writings that implied it was Jesus was squelched by the Catholic Church. The key is who did Judas kiss? The Gospel of Judas gives a hint: 'One who clothes me' or could it be 'the one who has on my clothes'. Why did Thomas go to India. All the others stayed close to home. Thomas called Jesus God. On the cross it was heard 'My god my god.." Was Jesus calling his father God. Or was it Thomas, remember Thomas did say he would did for Jesus. Your preacher and other theologians get paid not to tell you these things. Use your common sense.

Anonymous said...

Hahaha Muslim wisdom....LOL or should I say their everlasting fight to console themselves over their horrible, pedophile, necrophile, zoophile "self-proclaimed-wanna-be-prophet"....are simply as worthless as those claiming toward Christians, that after all "we" believe in the "same" GOD....from my faithful Christian standpoint I therefore declare, that NO we don't believe in the same GOD, who is the muslim god??
There is ONLY one GOD, Jesus Christ, who died for our sins, who rose from the grave and now is in heaven. I believe in the holy trinity (which puzzles musels all over because they can't think), the father, the son and the holy spirit...