Sunday, February 12, 2012

OT prophecies of the Messiah...

Following some comments made in response to a previous post, I thought it would be a good time to look over the Christian claim that Jesus fulfilled many OT prophecies and is thus demonstrated to be the messiah. Some preachers claim that Jesus fulfills 'over 300' prophecies in the OT, but I don't really have the time or inclination to consider that many now, so I'll consider the 39 main ones, which I have taken from this list. If your favourite OT prophecy of Jesus isn't one of the ones on the list, please comment with a specific chapter and verse reference, and I'll have a look at that one too.

In commenting on this list, I'll be looking at a number of issues, two of the main one being whether the OT passage was actually intended or viewed as a messianic prophecy when it was written or first known, and whether or not it looks like the gospel accounts were written specifically to tick the boxes of some of the OT prophecies, that is, the gospel accounts contrived to make Jesus fulfill the prophecy, whether the historical Jesus actually did. Point 1 is case in point:

1. Micah 5:2. The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem.
This was clearly understood as a Messianic prophecy.
However, two of the gospels and all of the epistles make no mention of this. Luke's story of the census does appear contrived (what sort of census counts the population in places where they don't live?), so there are hallmarks of the story being contrived to tick the prophecy box. I'm not sure this one counts as evidence that Jesus fulfilled prophecy.

2. Genesis 49:10. The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah.
“The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from his descendants, until the coming of the one to whom it belongs, the one whom all nations will obey.”
Only two of the gospels (Matt and Luke) make explicit that Jesus was a descendent of Judah. Mark has Jesus himself questioning the claim that he is a descendent of David. But none of that really matters, the main point to raise here is that Jesus had no association with a 'ruler's staff' or a 'scepter' during his time on earth and, thus far, not all the nations obey him. So, at best, this is a prophecy still awaiting its fulfillment. Of course, that means it is not evidence in favour of Jesus being the messiah.

3. Psalm 72:10-11. Great kings will pay homage and tribute to the Messiah.
The website I took this list from quotes the verse from the New Living Translation: “The western kings of Tarshish and the islands will bring him tribute. The eastern kings of Sheba and Seba will bring him gifts.” I looked this up in other translations and the sense is somewhat different: "May the kings of Tarshish and of distant shores bring tribute to him. May the kings of Sheba and Seba present him gifts. May all kings bow down to him and all nations serve him" (NIV). In context, the whole psalm is a prayer or blessing clearly intended for the coronation ceremony of any king. The hope is that all the blessings listed, including the favour of foreign kings and nations, will be evident in the reign of whichever king was being enthroned. This would, by implication, have also been applied to the coming messiah. However, only one of the gospels relates the visit of the Magi (not kings!) to the infant Jesus, and they came from the east, perhaps Sheba (possibly modern day Yemen), but not Seba (which was not a place, but the son of Cush, thus linked with Ethiopia; South not East) and certainly not from Tarshish (thought to be Tarsus, Asia Minor; North West). This passage is debated by many scholars and thought by most critical scholars to be fiction, intended to show that Jesus fulfilled prophecy, rather than being historical.

4. Psalm 132:11, Jeremiah 23:5-6, Jeremiah 33:15. The Messiah will be a descendant of David.
“The Lord swore to David a promise he will never take back: ‘I will place one of your descendants on your throne. If your descendants obey the terms of my covenant and follow the decrees that I teach them, then your royal line will never end.”
“‘For the time is coming,’ says the Lord, ‘when I will place a righteous Branch on King David’s throne. He will be a King who rules with wisdom. He will do what is just and right through the land.”
“At that time I will bring to the throne of David a righteous descendant, and he will do what is just and right throughout the land.”
Two things here, firstly, and most importantly, Jesus has never yet sat on any throne or ruled over Israel or Judah. So, at best, this is a prophecy still awaiting its fulfillment. But beyond that, the gospels are unclear that Jesus was a son of David:
Mark 12: 35-37 "While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “Why do the teachers of the law say that the Messiah is the son of David? David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”’ David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?” The large crowd listened to him with delight." (Matthew and Luke copy this story and don't change it, even though both their genealogies of Jesus feature David).
Here, Jesus is clearly challenging the concept that the Messiah would be the son of David. There is no resolution to the story, so left as is, the only conclusion to draw is that, as far as Mark was concerned, Jesus was not a son of David. This is further emphasised by an implication in another Markan story, whereby the only person who calls Jesus 'Son of David' in Mark's gospel is Blind Bartimaeus. And he only says this while blind, after he has been healed of his blindness, he praises God, but makes no further mention of the 'Son of David' thing. Is there a wink and a nudge to the reader there?

5. Isaiah 7:14. The Messiah will be born of a virgin.
“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”
This is one of the biggies, and is one of the most hotly contested. Does 'almah' mean virgin or young girl? Well, I don't think it matters, because the verse is part of a larger prophecy which goes on to say: "for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”
Did Assyria attack Judea during Jesus' lifetime, but before he knew the difference between right and wrong? No. Indeed, if Jesus was the Son of God from all eternity was there ever a time when he didn't know the difference between right and wrong? And was he called Immanuel? No. He was called Jesus. For these reasons, I cannot see how Jesus fulfilled this prophecy. Furthermore, it certainly does appear that Matt and Luke included the virgin birth theme to tick boxes, but even if it happened, a partial fulfillment of a prophecy is actually not a fulfillment of a prophecy.

6. Jeremiah 31:15. Children will be killed in effort to kill the Messiah.
The website I took this list from quotes the NLT: “This is what the Lord says: ‘A cry of anguish is heard in Ramah – mourning and weeping unrestrained. Rachel weeps for her children, refusing to be comforted – for her children are dead.”
Having compared the other translations and looked at the Hebrew (on Biblos), the original text would appear to be better translated "her children are not there" or "her children are gone". Given that this verse sits in the middle of a large prophecy about the return from exile, and the immediately following verse says "This is what the LORD says: "Restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for your work will be rewarded," declares the LORD. "They will return from the land of the enemy", this verse must be understood to relate to the absent exiles who would return, not to dead children who couldn't return. Furthermore, Ramah is about as far North of Jerusalem as Bethlehem is south of it. Thus I think Matthew was entirely wrong to use this quote in connection with the slaughter of the innocents which he relates. So, once again, this is not a prophecy fulfilled by the life of Jesus.

7. Hosea 11:1. The Messiah will be taken to Egypt.
“When Israel was a child, I loved him as a son, and I called my son out of Egypt.”
In context (and even out of context) this verse is clearly not a prophecy regarding the future, it speaks about the events recorded in Exodus. Here, the 'son' in question is unmistakably the nation of Israel, not a future messiah. This verse is only understood as prophecy through the lens of Pesher, which I will probably discuss in another post, sometime soon.

8. Psalm 2:7-8. The Messiah will be the Son of God.
“The king proclaims the Lord’s decree: ‘The Lord said to me, ‘You are my son. Today, I have become your Father. Only ask, and I will give you the nations as your inheritance, the ends of the earth as your possession.”
Scholars seem to think that this psalm was one spoken by the (pre-exilic) king of Israel or Judea as part of his enthronement ceremony, or as part of an annual festival. So it wasn't originally messianic in intent. However, it clearly became understood as part of messianic expectation in the post-exilic period. Thus, if Jesus is the king, then it does relate to him. However, Jesus has yet to return as king, thus this is another prophecy which remains, as yet, unfulfilled.

9. Isaiah 40:3-5. The Messiah will be heralded by the messenger of the Lord.
“Listen! I hear the voice of someone shouting, ‘Make a highway for the Lord through the wilderness. Make a straight, smooth road through the desert for our God. Fill the valleys and level the hills. Straighten out the curves and smooth off the rough spots. Then the glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all the people will see it together. The Lord has spoken!”
The funny thing about this prophecy is that the original sense of the passage is that the wilderness would be the place where the way of the Lord would be made, whereas the claimed NT fulfillment is that the wilderness is where the voice was heard shouting. So John the Baptist is only a partial fulfillment of this. But this is one of the clearest prophecies fulfilled in the story of Jesus.

10. Isaiah 11:2. The Messiah will be anointed by the Holy Spirit.
“And the Spirit of the Lord will rest on him – the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and fear of the Lord.”
This is another passage that is clearly messianic expectation. But has it yet been fulfilled in Jesus? Certainly, out of context Isa 11:2 seems to be fulfilled by Jesus in the gospel stories, but what about the rest of the prophecy? Has Jesus (yet) judged the poor? Has he (yet) struck the earth with the rod of his mouth? Has he (yet) slain the wicked with the breath of his lips? (all in verse 4). No, no and no. So once again, this is one of those prophecies which Christians believe will be fulfilled by Jesus, but thus far in history, it hasn't.

11. Isaiah 9:1-2. The Messiah will bring light to Galilee.
“Nevertheless, that time of darkness and despair will not go on forever. The land of Zebulun and Naphtali will soon be humbled, but there will be a time in the future when Galilee of the Gentiles, which lies along the road that runs between the Jordan and the sea, will be filled with glory. The people who walk in darkness will see a great light – a light that will shine on all who live in the land where death casts its shadow.”
These verses are part of a larger messianic prophecy which ends up with the messiah on the throne judging for ever and ever. As noted above, this hasn't happened yet. However, the opening verses claim this messiah will be in some way connected to Galilee. So if you can separate verse 1 from the 7 verses that follow, then this has been fulfilled (even if it is vague) in Jesus, but if not, then this is still a prophecy awaiting fulfillment.

12. Isaiah 61:1-2. The Messiah will preach good news to the poor, comfort the broken hearted, and announce the year of the Lord’s favor.
“The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me, because the Lord has appointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to comfort the brokenhearted and to announce that captives will be released and prisoners will be freed. He has sent me to tell those who mourn that the time of the Lord’s favor has come.”
The gospel accounts say Jesus claimed this prophecy was fulfilled in himself, so this one is pretty clear cut. Jesus apparently did bring good news to the poor. Not sure about the freedom for prisoners bit, unless you read that metaphorically, of course.

13. Psalm 35:19. The Messiah will be hated without cause.
“Don’t let my treacherous enemies rejoice over my defeat. Don’t let those who hate me without cause gloat over my sorrow.”
This psalm was clearly not written as a messianic prophecy, and only later Pesher has turned it into one. And the clause quoted is only a minor one in the psalm. Also, it is clear for the gospels that the pharisees had good reason to hate Jesus - he was challenging their way of life. So not a clear fulfilled prophecy.

14. Isaiah 35:5-6. The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, the lame walk, and the mute speak.
“And when he comes, he will open the eyes of the blind and unstop the ears of the deaf. The lame will leap like a deer, and those who cannot speak will shout and sing!”
Yes. This one is clearly fulfilled by Jesus in the gospel stories.

15. Zechariah 9:9. The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey.
“Rejoice greatly, O people of Zion! Shout in triumph, O people of Jerusalem! Look, your king is coming to you. He is righteous and victorious, yet he is humble, riding on a donkey – even on a donkey’s colt.”
This is a messianic prophecy, clearly, but the original context was all to do with judgement on all Israel's neighbours, a judgement that had already happened by the time of Jesus as all of them were under the dominion of Rome. Yes, the gospel accounts do have Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey (Matthew actually has him riding in on a donkey and a colt - at the same time - specifically to tick this box). However, it is fairly clear in the gospels that Jesus did this act intending to fulfill this prophecy, so is that a true fulfillment? Bus as I'm going to tally these up at the bottom of the post, then this is a yes.

16. Daniel 9:25. The Messiah will arrive in Jerusalem at a specified time.
“Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One comes.”
This is one of those prophecies that needs unpacking. If you calculate the time of the prophecy of Daniel in a certain way and you make some assumptions about the length of a year (basically that a year is not 365 days, but is only 340!) then the numbers work out almost perfectly for the messiah coming at passover in the year 31AD. Which is (give or take a year) when most people think Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Sorry, but that's too contrived for me. And most critical scholars think that Daniel was written late, so the dates wouldn't add up. So, at best, I'm not convinced by this. Maybe I'll return to this in a future post.

17. Malachi 3:1. The Messiah will enter the Temple with authority.
“‘Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. Then the Lord you are seeking will suddenly come to his Temple. The messenger of the covenant, whom you look for so eagerly, is surely coming,’ says the Lord Almighty.”
This is another prophecy where those who claim that Jesus fulfilled it are reading his claimed future actions into its fulfillment. Yes, Jesus entered the temple with (violent) authority, but the judgement and 'day of the Lord' stuff that fills the rest of the prophecy was not fulfilled for another 40 years, at least, and perhaps has not been fulfilled yet. So this is another partial fulfillment.

18. Isaiah 53:3. The Messiah will be rejected.
“He was despised and rejected – a man of sorrows, acquainted with bitterest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way when he went by. He was despised, and we did not care.”
Well, it depends which part of the gospel story you read. For part of the story, Jesus was accepted and welcomed by many, while he was rejected at other parts. But yes, it does look like this messianic expectation was fulfilled at the time of Jesus trial and crucifixion.

19. Isaiah 53:7. The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers.
“He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth.”
This is part of the same prophecy as above, so I'm not sure it counts as a separate point. The gospel accounts do tell the story that Jesus was silent for most of his trial. Was that fulfillment or box ticking? This one is hard to tell.

20. Psalm 118:22. The Messiah will be rejected by the Jews.
“The stone rejected by the builders has now become the cornerstone. This is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous to see.”
Well, Peter 2:7 says that Jesus fulfills this one. Beyond that, it is unclear in the original context what the verse is about. It doesn't look like it was written as a messianic expectation but, like many other Davidic verses in the psalms, it may have gained a messianic expectation in the post-exilic years. The original context does not suggest that 'the builders' refers to 'the Jews', so it is only reading this using Pesher and reading this using non-Jewish Christian reasoning that you can call this one a fulfilled prophecy.

21. Psalm 41:9. The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend.
“Even my best friend, the one I trusted completely, the one who shared my food, has turned against me.”
Was Judas Jesus's best friend? None of the gospels make this claim. Luckily the original language isn't as strong as 'best friend', and 'close friend' might be better. So yes, if this was understood to be a messianic expectation, then it was fulfilled in Jesus.

22. Zechariah 11:12. The Messiah will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.
“And I said to them, ‘If you like, give me my wages, whatever I am worth; but only if you want to.’ So they counted out for my wages thirty pieces of silver.”
There is nothing messianic in this OT passage. In order to relate this to Jesus it has to be taken completely out of context. However, I think that Matthew did read this as messianic and included it for box ticking purposes.

23. Zechariah 11:13. The 30 pieces of silver will be thrown in the potter’s field.
“And the Lord said to me, ‘Throw it to the potters’ – this magnificent sum at which they valued me! So I took the thirty coins and threw them to the potters in the Temple of the Lord.”
As above, part of the same prophecy. I think this is box ticking.

24. Psalm 35:11. The Messiah will be accused by false witnesses.
“Malicious witnesses testify against me. They accuse me of things I don’t even know about.”
Another non-messianic verse from the psalms that appears to have somehow become part of messianic expectation. Also, this translation (NLT) is not the sense of the verse preferred by most translations. Most translations drop the 'accuse' sense of it and translate as "ask me things I don't know", which is certainly not a parallel with the gospel story.

25. Isaiah 50:6. The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spit upon.
“I give my back to those who beat me and my cheeks to those who pull out my beard. I do not hide from shame, for they mock me and spit in my face.”
I can see how this has become 'messianic' after the stories of Jesus were circulated, but in its original context, it was clearly a passage about how the prophet ('2nd' Isaiah) was badly treated for being faithful to the Lord, and how the Lord looked after him.

26. Isaiah 52:13-14. The Messiah will be beaten, bloodied, and disfigured.
“See, my servant will prosper; he will be highly exalted. Many were amazed when they saw him – beaten and bloodied, so disfigured one would scarcely know he was a person.”
First things first, the verse clearly says it is about the 'servant' of the Lord (i.e. a prophet), not about his Son. But anyway, this is the beginning of the 'suffering servant' prophecy which certainly appears to parallel parts of the gospel story.

27. Psalm 22:7-8. The Messiah will be mocked and told to save himself.
“Everyone who sees me mocks me. They sneer and shake their heads, saying, ‘Is this the one who relies on the Lord? Then let the Lord save him! If the Lord loves him so much, let the Lord rescue him!’”
Psalm 22 doesn't appear to have been written as a messianic psalm, but by the time Christians were trying to get their heads around the idea of a crucified messiah, this psalm would have resonated greatly. The parallels are so striking that many believe that Mark wrote the crucifixion story with psalm 22 in mind. That is, it was not prophecy fulfilled, but rather a story told using building blocks from a familiar narrative.

28. Psalm 22:16. The Messiah’s enemies will pierce his hands and feet.
“My enemies surround me like a pack of dogs; an evil gang closes in on me. They have pierced my hands and feet.”
As above.

29. Psalm 69:21. The Messiah will be given vinegar and gall to drink.
“But instead, they give me poison for food; they offer me sour wine to satisfy my thirst.”
A different psalm, but the same reasoning as above can apply here. Mark used this text to build his narrative, not the other way about. And even if it is fulfilled prophecy, it is only partial fulfillment as nobody offered Jesus poisoned food.

30. Psalm 22:17-18. The Messiah’s enemies will divide his clothes among themselves and cast dice for his garments.
“My enemies stare at me and gloat. They divide my clothes among themselves and throw dice for my garments.”
Psalm 22 again. As above.

31. Psalm 34:19-20. The Messiah’s bones will not be broken.
“The righteous face many troubles, but the Lord rescues them from each and every one. For the Lord protects them from harm – not one of their bones will be broken!”
An odd verse to claim regarding Jesus. I don't think you could say that the Lord had 'protected him from harm', or that he was 'rescued'.

32. Psalm 22:14. The Messiah’s life will be poured out like water.
“My life is poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax, melting within me.”
Psalm 22 again. As above. And this one is quite tenuous anyway.

33. Zechariah 13:7. The Messiah will be struck down, and his disciples will be scattered.
“Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, the man who is my partner, says the Lord Almighty. Strike down the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn against the lambs.”
Well, on the night he was betrayed, the disciples certainly scattered, but the story is quite clear that they were all back together again only a few days later. Beyond that, it is hard to say what the Zechariah passage is on about. It could be interpreted in a number of ways, and the prophecy fulfilled in Jesus way is certainly not the most obvious reading.

34. Isaiah 53:9. The Messiah will be buried in a rich man’s grave.
“He had done no wrong, and he never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man’s grave.”
OK. That one fits.

35. Daniel 9:26. The Messiah will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing.
“After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple.”
If this is a prophecy fulfilled, then it would seem that the 'truth' of Jesus victory on the cross would not be known until after the city and temple were destroyed. Yet most people seem to agree that the claim that Jesus death bought salvation was widely known long before the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

36. Psalm 16:10 & 49:15. The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected).
“For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your godly one to rot in the grave.” “But as for me, God will redeem my life. He will snatch me from the power of death.”
Well, 49:15 speaks of being saved from death (i.e. not dying), so it is not relevant. But the other wasn't really written as a messianic psalm and only took on that role long after its composition. But I'll concede that this one appears to be a fulfillment.

37. Isaiah 53:4-6, etc. The Messiah will bear the sins of many and intercede for sinners.
“Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God for his own sins! But he was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed! All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on him the guilt and sins of us all.”
This is certainly the understanding of Christians. But it is not clear to non-Christians that Jesus bore any sins or was an atonement. So I can't see how this is proof of anything, it is only part of a belief structure. And as a side point, it is not clear from some of the gospels that Jesus died an atoning death, but that's a discussion for another blog post.

38. Psalm 68:18. The Messiah will ascend to heaven.
“When you ascended to the heights, you led a crowd of captives.”
Erm, did a crowd of captives ascend with Jesus? No. So its not a prophecy fulfilled, is it?

39. Psalm 22:30. The Messiah will be served by future generations.
“Future generations will also serve him. Our children will hear about the wonders of the Lord. His righteous acts will be told to those yet unborn. They will hear about everything he has done.”
OK. I'll grant you that one.

So where does that leave us? Did Jesus fulfill some prophecies in the OT? It appears so. Did he fulfill all the messianic prophecies? No, far from it. Did the gospel writers arrange their stories to tick some of the prophecy boxes? Some of them did.

Out of the 39 prophecies listed here, I'd say that 10 of them are reasonably clear prophecies fulfilled in the story of Jesus. That's 25%. Not a great hit rate, given that there are thousands of prophecies in the OT and this list of 39 is someone's list of the best candidates for fulfillment.

I don't think the 'evidence' of prophecies fulfilled is that great...

(if you comment on this post, please quote the specific verses you're commenting on, thanks)

11 comments:

minoria said...

Regarding:

Genesis 49:10

“The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from his descendants, until the coming of the one to whom it belongs, the one whom all nations will obey.”

The way you stated it is not the way it is understood.

In 6 AD the Romans took away from the Jews the right,except in 1 case,to apply the death sentence.

In other words they lost practically all authority.Jesus had already been born then,the Messiah had arrived so the prophecy became true.The Messiah came before the scepter was taken away.

When the Jews were taken to Babylon they still had the right to their judicial court which applied Mosaic law,it continued under the Seleucids,the Hasmoneans,under the Romans till 6 AD.


It is the Talmud:

(Talmud, Jerusalem Talmud, Sanhedrin, fol. 24, recto.)


"A little more than forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the power of pronouncing capital sentences was taken away from the Jews." (Talmud, Jerusalem, Sanhedrin, fol. 24, recto.)

The Talmud (Babylonian Talmud., Sanhedrin, Chap. 4, fol. 51b) says,

"Since the Sanhedrin no longer had jurisdiction in capital offenses, there is no practical utility in this ruling, which can become effective only in the days of the Messiah."

minoria said...

When one studies Islam one sees it boils down to this:

It is just the word of one man,that literally all his revelations are from him,Muhammad.That is bad.

What would a religious Jew say?

I always try to place myself in their mentality.He would say:

1.God made sure the Messianic prophecies were never given in totality to just one man.

2.Otherwise how can you tell if that one man,just one man was not tricked by the Devil,like Muhammad?

3.He gave a portion here to one guy and hundreds of years later to another guy,etc.That way you can't say it came from one demon,and that way you can't say it is just a coincidence.

About other prophecies

As a said before,each gives only a portion.In the article in French here,which can be translated using Google Translate it has about:

Isaiah 42:1-6:

It says a holy man will establish a berit/alliance with the nations,the non-Jews.

Also verse four says,about the holy man:

"And for his law isles wait with hope."

It also says

And Jeremiah 31:31-36 actually says "new berit(alliance)" which will be different from the one given to Moses,Mosaic Law.

Here we have specifics,we know Isaiah 42 is about the Messiah because it says he will rule the world:

"and he will bring justice to the nations......
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth."

Any religious Jew will say tha detail shows it is about the Messiah.

So Jeremiah was given a detail,a new berit/alliance would come.

Isaiah was told of an alliance with the Gentiles by the Messiah,it coincides with the NT claim.

minoria said...

I forgot to add the Frech article:

http://www.avraidire.com/2010/12/la-nouvelle-alliance-de-jesus-prophetisee-deux-fois-dans-lancien-testament/

minoria said...

Hello,

I want to refer a bit to Gen 49:10 again.From Josephus and archeological evidence we know that the only exception to the Jews not being able to apply capital punishment was if a Gentile enterd the Temple,an inscription with that law has been found in Jerusalem.

If one wants to argue that that means the scepter was still with the Jews,then ok.

But in 70 AD the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple,so all remaining Jewish authority was destroyed,but Jesus had appeared way before 70 AD.

ABOUT DANIEL 9

There are different dates for the starting time,587 BC,538 BC,456 BC,445 BC.

If you say the Jewish year was in effect 365 days,and I think it is correct,then Jesus was killed before all those dates except 445 BC.

But as the documentary evidence shows the Jews in 1st century Palestine were expecting the Davidic Messiah then,the only logical reason is they saw Daniel 9as being about him.

ABOUT ISAIAH 7

In Islam nobody has as their name God is Great/Allah-u-Akbar,since that would mean the man is saying he is God.

And no Muslim would have as his name "Allah is with us".But in Judaism it is ok,one can be Immanuel/God is with us.

But in Judaism nobody can be named using the complete name of God,Yahweh,and be called Yahweh this or Yahweh that.

It is saying he is Yahweh,literally God.The equivalent of a Muslim saying,my name is "Allah-u-Akbar",he is saying he is Allah.

But Jeremiah says the Davidic Messiah will be Yahweh Tsidkenu,Yahweh is our righteousness.

So Matthew saw a parallel,a midrashic parallel between the 2 prophecies and said so.Midrash is used in the Talmud alot of times.Matthew saw:

"The Davidic Messia=Yahweh"

"A young woman will have a son called "God is with us"."

Looking at Daniel 9,since an anointed one/messiah is killed then how is he going to bring peace and justice if he is dead?The only answer is through resurrection,it is implied,when you consider the other prophecies.

minoria said...

Hello,

I want to refer a bit to Gen 49:10 again.From Josephus and archeological evidence we know that the only exception to the Jews not being able to apply capital punishment was if a Gentile enterd the Temple,an inscription with that law has been found in Jerusalem.

If one wants to argue that that means the scepter was still with the Jews,then ok.

But in 70 AD the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple,so all remaining Jewish authority was destroyed,but Jesus had appeared way before 70 AD.

ABOUT DANIEL 9

There are different dates for the starting time,587 BC,538 BC,456 BC,445 BC.

If you say the Jewish year was in effect 365 days,and I think it is correct,then Jesus was killed before all those dates except 445 BC.

But as the documentary evidence shows the Jews in 1st century Palestine were expecting the Davidic Messiah then,the only logical reason is they saw Daniel 9as being about him.

ABOUT ISAIAH 7

In Islam nobody has as their name God is Great/Allah-u-Akbar,since that would mean the man is saying he is God.

And no Muslim would have as his name "Allah is with us".But in Judaism it is ok,one can be Immanuel/God is with us.

But in Judaism nobody can be named using the complete name of God,Yahweh,and be called Yahweh this or Yahweh that.

It is saying he is Yahweh,literally God.The equivalent of a Muslim saying,my name is "Allah-u-Akbar",he is saying he is Allah.

But Jeremiah says the Davidic Messiah will be Yahweh Tsidkenu,Yahweh is our righteousness.

So Matthew saw a parallel,a midrashic parallel between the 2 prophecies and said so.Midrash is used in the Talmud alot of times.Matthew saw:

"The Davidic Messia=Yahweh"

"A young woman will have a son called "God is with us"."

Looking at Daniel 9,since an anointed one/messiah is killed then how is he going to bring peace and justice if he is dead?The only answer is through resurrection,it is implied,when you consider the other prophecies.

minoria said...

Hello,

I want to refer a bit to Gen 49:10 again.From Josephus and archeological evidence we know that the only exception to the Jews not being able to apply capital punishment was if a Gentile enterd the Temple,an inscription with that law has been found in Jerusalem.

If one wants to argue that that means the scepter was still with the Jews,then ok.

But in 70 AD the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple,so all remaining Jewish authority was destroyed,but Jesus had appeared way before 70 AD.

ABOUT DANIEL 9

There are different dates for the starting time,587 BC,538 BC,456 BC,445 BC.

If you say the Jewish year was in effect 365 days,and I think it is correct,then Jesus was killed before all those dates except 445 BC.

But as the documentary evidence shows the Jews in 1st century Palestine were expecting the Davidic Messiah then,the only logical reason is they saw Daniel 9as being about him.

ABOUT ISAIAH 7

In Islam nobody has as their name God is Great/Allah-u-Akbar,since that would mean the man is saying he is God.

And no Muslim would have as his name "Allah is with us".But in Judaism it is ok,one can be Immanuel/God is with us.

But in Judaism nobody can be named using the complete name of God,Yahweh,and be called Yahweh this or Yahweh that.

It is saying he is Yahweh,literally God.The equivalent of a Muslim saying,my name is "Allah-u-Akbar",he is saying he is Allah.

But Jeremiah says the Davidic Messiah will be Yahweh Tsidkenu,Yahweh is our righteousness.

So Matthew saw a parallel,a midrashic parallel between the 2 prophecies and said so.Midrash is used in the Talmud alot of times.Matthew saw:

"The Davidic Messia=Yahweh"

"A young woman will have a son called "God is with us"."

Looking at Daniel 9,since an anointed one/messiah is killed then how is he going to bring peace and justice if he is dead?The only answer is through resurrection,it is implied,when you consider the other prophecies.

minoria said...

Hello,

About Psalms 72:10-11/2:7-8/35:19/41:9/35:11/Psalm 22/69:21/16:10/49:15,they are not really Messianic.

The auhtor uses Midrash.That is he sees a parallel with a real event and points to it.

A MODERN EXAMPLE

In 1948 80,000 Jews were kicked out of Egypt.A religious Orthodox Jew could says,knowing it is just a parallelism,using Midrash,"Thus happened what is written,or given as a message(a prophecy) in Hosea11:1:

"Out of Eqypt I will call out my son(the Jewish people)".

Hosea refers to Moses and the Jews of Pharaoh's time,but an Orthodox Jew would see a parallelism.

minoria said...

As for Mark 12:35-37 there Jesus uses a common Jewish technique found in the Talmud and used all the time by Jewish teachers.

He answers a statement or question with a question.

WHY DO YOU CALL ME GOOD?

In Mark a man calls him good and Jesus says:

"Why do you call me good?

There is none good but God".

He is saying:"Define the word Good".That way of speaking is the Talmudic technique,also called the Socratic method.Define your terms,concepts,words.

And he says only God is good,but doesn`t say he is not God.

So Jesus wanted his audience to think about the passage.He does not deny the Messiah would be a descendant of David,that point is important.

But he points out that,in the form of a question,to make them think.The passage is showing the Messiah as already existing,how can he be David's son then?

He has to be more than just a human being in the future,if he already existed in David's time.

But certainly jesus knew all the passages about the Davidic Messiah and he would not have denied them.

minoria said...

As for Mark 12:35-37 there Jesus uses a common Jewish technique found in the Talmud and used all the time by Jewish teachers.

He answers a statement or question with a question.

WHY DO YOU CALL ME GOOD?

In Mark a man calls him good and Jesus says:

"Why do you call me good?

There is none good but God".

He is saying:"Define the word Good".That way of speaking is the Talmudic technique,also called the Socratic method.Define your terms,concepts,words.

And he says only God is good,but doesn`t say he is not God.

So Jesus wanted his audience to think about the passage.He does not deny the Messiah would be a descendant of David,that point is important.

But he points out that,in the form of a question,to make them think.The passage is showing the Messiah as already existing,how can he be David's son then?

He has to be more than just a human being in the future,if he already existed in David's time.

But certainly Jesus knew all the passages about the Davidic Messiah and he would not have denied them.

minoria said...

About Zechariah 13:7

"Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, And against the man, My Associate," Declares YAHWEH of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones."

The Hebre word translated as my associate/my fellow/partner/my friend is,I think,bidi:

It means equality,like a social equal,someobdy at your level,your position.

Notice Yahweh says the man is his equal,in what sense we dont know.Now what man,a man, can be the equal to God in any sens,in power?In knowledge?In wisdom?etc.

That is why it is about Jesus and yes,his death.

Ricky Carvel said...

I've not ignored these comments. I've just been really busy the past couple of weeks. I'll get to them...